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JEFF WINTER INTERVIEW 9-2-06
A boot boy Middlesbrough fan in the 1970s, Football League official as the Premiership was formed and one of the very first professional referees, Jeff Winter has been at the heart of football as the modern game has evolved.
Jeff's autobiography, 'Who's the B*****d in the Black?' is now available and in its pages he exposes the backroom stories and untold secrets of the key events in his remarkable career and football's recent history.
You'll find stories of his dealings with some of the most controversial and volatile characters in the game including Wayne Rooney, Ian Wright, Roy Keane, Neil Ruddock, Patrick Vieira, Arsene Wenger, Gordon Strachan, Steve Bruce, Harry Redknapp and in particular Alex Ferguson.
Honest, provocative and utterly compelling, there has never been a more independent view of English football from someone who was out there on the pitch.
Jeff took time out from a hectic promotional schedule to talk to ComeOnBoro.com about the book and it's controversial contents and more.
COB: When did you have the idea to write your book and how did it all come together?
JW: I had thought about doing a book for sometime when I was approached by Phil Hughes who was George Best's agent. He set up a deal with Random House who are one of the country's top publishers. We looked at previous referee's books by Elleray and Collina and they both were quite tame so we decided that this would be different.
From the days on the terraces, through local and non league football, the pro game, the FA Cup final, and my life after football. Obviously they wanted a bit of bite and that was quite difficult because I did not want to do a 'Collymore'. There are some things that go on tour that stay on tour.
COB: Can you elaborate on the writing process and the timescales involved.
JW: Being a top London publisher, they wanted to use London sports writers as ghost writers. Fucking typical! We can't do nowt up north. However I stuck in and they agreed I could use Andrew Wilkinson from the Gazette and Ray Simpson from Radio Cleveland. The whole process started in February 2004 and the three of us met about twenty times in total for three to four hours each time. I gobbed off, they wrote, they came back and we amended it as we thought best.
By July we had about 110,000 words. They wanted 85,000 to 95,000 so we then set about cutting it back. There are loads of good bits on the cutting room floor... The publishers then also advised us that some of it was a bit near the knuckle and they wanted a user friendly read and not me fighting the world which meant more on the cutting room floor. Then came the legal read which cost me £1,600 just for someone to read it. Probably good money spent though because if you get sued you are fucked.
COB Has the book been a success so far and what would you like to see it achieve?
JW: Within three days of release the book had hit the top 100 of Amazon's list of books. They have 250,000 books on the list. Normally they decide after about a year if they are going to bring out a paperback but they have already decided that this will happen in October in time for Christmas. What all this means in terms of numbers I don't know yet.
When it was eventually ready for printing we had Christmas and then the build up to the launch. I had expected and hoped for some publicity to sell the book, but was totally overwhelmed by the response. When all is said and done I am a boy from the Boro who was a referee and not some high ranking politician or celebrity.
But in three days I appeared on BBC Breakfast News, Sky News, the Radio 2 Johnnie Walker show (5½ million listeners on Talksport with Hawksby & Jacobs (Legends), Capital Gold with Dave 'Kid' Jenson and virtually every regional BBC regional radio station. The News of the World serialised the Fergie chapter the same week as they exposed Sven and I had interviews in the Mail, Times, Guardian, Independent, Manchester Evening News, Northern Echo, Gazette and loads of magazines. So if it doesn't sell, I can't blame the publisher's publicity campaign.
COB What do you think of the ruling that referee's have to retire at 48 years-old? Would you have continued if this rule did not exist?
JW: I was quite happy with the 48 years retirement age limit. The problem is in this country it takes so long to get through the system that most refs were in mid to late thirties before they got on the Premiership. You have to be nominated for FIFA before you are forty and I missed out on this because of that age ruling, so I think you have to get referees in younger and that means not keeping the older one's on. In the short term you lose that experience, but in the longer term it should have it's rewards. The full time training and travelling etc. takes its toll and there is so much political shit that I was more than happy to retire. I had experienced a great career culminating in doing the FA Cup Final so I was ready for new challenges.
COB: You courted controversy throughout your career, the Alex Ferguson sending off and the Steve Bruce 'prat' comments to name but two. Do you have any regrets and is there anything that you would do differently if you had your time again?
JW: No regrets. Life is dead simple- once it's done, it's done. Learn from your mistakes and move on. Anyway who gives a fuck about Fergie or Bruce!
COB: You are quoted as saying that "There is gross mismanagement of the career progression of referees. There is a lack of forward planning." Can you elaborate on that.
JW: Refereeing is a great career. You keep fit, are involved in the game at the highest level, travel, meet people (including a few tossers along the way) but it was really great. However, like with everything in life they are people who you don't like and those that lick suck and crawl and refereeing is no different.
There is one person in particular that as a referee, despite what the majority of fans might think, is an excellent referee, but Keith Lamb described him to me as "If he was made of chocolate he would eat himself". He has the earn of the bosses and manipulates anything and everything to his advantage. The majority of the refs hate him, but he is very powerful. I was the only one who would stand up to him, but now I have gone he rules the roost.
With his selfish influence and the weakness of the bosses, we now have a situation that means he and his mate were getting virtually all the big games and there has been a lack of planning to get other refs through the system and onto the Premiership and Fifa. Other refs have just been discarded, for example Messias and D'Urso. Whilst the fans give the refs some stick, the authorities are even worse.
COB: Is it true that you were dismissed as a referees' assessor for speaking your mind too frequently?
JW: I was assessing after I finished refereeing. Keith Hackett, the ref's boss, had promised me a role as his assistant and I trusted him. This did not materialize - thank God, with hindsight - for a lot of reasons, mainly because I was not a 'yes man'. I had started assessing but also doing some media work. Hackett got me a lot of work but when the shit hit the fan after I did some articles about Fergie and Wenger he denied this and as I had upset the rich and powerful, I was given an ultimatum. Shut up or get out.
Well that decision took less time than a Viduka sprint. You don't speak without their permission and ironically they can trust you to referee the FA Cup Final but want to edit and control every word you say. Bollocks to that, the Premiership and FA are scared of the big clubs, that's the problem.
COB: How did you find the transition from referee to your current roles in the media?
JW: I love the media work and I am and always will be a fan. Boro till I die. I also have a very good relationship at both Darlo and Hartlepool. Being the only top flight referee who has retired and is not controlled by the FA, then it seems that all the media come to me after controversy. I regularly appear on Sky, Radio Five, Talksport, The Sun and have done bits for Nuts and Zoo. Favourite was a photo shoot with Michelle Marsh. And I got paid. Am I missing refereeing? You're having a fucking laugh, aren't you?
96.6 TFM has been great to me and Soccer Saturday (12- 2) with Terry Cochrane and the boys is Soccer AM on the radio. We look at the three local sides but also have a laugh with special features and Terry and I fight like cat and dog about everything, but mostly refereeing decisions. I also have the phone-in programme every Saturday night from 5.30 - 6.30 (01642 616666). Imagine my delight when having signed the contract the fixtures came out with four Boro games live on a Saturday night and two England internationals. I was fucked, but fortunately it gave a platform to Darlo and Hartlepool fans that the other local stations and the Nationals did not afford them.
Now the Boro are back to normal the show is bouncing, I do not sit on the fence and I love doing it. We take the show to Darlo and Pools and do it from the ground. We have also done it from the Steelies and Bannatynes, so as well as the calls we have fans on live. Darlo and Pools have been great with players coming on post match and talking to fans live on air. The best one was at Darlo. Matt Clarke had a stinker and was booed into the corner bar but by the time we had finished on air he got a standing ovation. Any chance of it happening at the Boro? More chance of me shagging Michelle Marsh and getting paid for it.
COB: What ambitions are you currently harbouring for the future? Any chance of you becoming involved in the game again in a non-media role?
JW: The future. Well I hope to learn more and get better on the radio, keep on with the other media work and hopefully not have to wait another 128 years for another trophy.
COB: Where do you think Middlesbrough will end up this season? What's your opinion on why it has all gone so horribly wrong?
JW: The Boro. God knows. Too may highly paid superstars who are not prepared to give 100%. The manager is so highly rated he should be able to get them going, but I am very worried. The kids are our future and perhaps now we have to go backwards to go forwards. Let's have some home grown players with fire and the Boro in their bellies. They want it as much as the fans.
As long as we have Gibbo we stand a chance. The future, well - "Tony Mowbray's Red and White Army. We shall overcome one day".
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Jeff Winter will be signing copies of 'Who's the B*****d in the Black?' in Borders on Teesside Park on Saturday 18th 1-2 pm, the club shop in town on Monday 20th 3.30 till 4.30 and Waterstones in town on Saturday 25th 12.30 till 13.30.
YOU WILL BE ABLE TO BUY BUY THE BOOK RIGHT HERE FROM THURSDAY
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